2019 Polygon
宝可梦剑盾开发访谈
大森滋 × 增田顺一
Game Freak谈Switch主机定位、千人参与规模与部分宝可梦缺席。
Contents 本篇 17 章
- 很多人说这是第一款真正的宝可梦主机RPG。你自己也这么看，还是这只是别人的说法？
- 在某些方面，感觉像是Switch把你们拉上了主机，而不是你们自己可能想往那个方向走。有这种...
- 你们还记得自己针对这款硬件提出过什么具体的反馈吗？
- 最近有一篇采访，你（大森）提到有一千人以某种方式参与了这个游戏，我知道这不只是Game F...
- 与你们之前开发宝可梦游戏时相比，人员数量如何？
- 当然，我想其中很多人并不是全职做这个游戏。
- 那么总体而言，粗略来说，这个项目比之前的游戏规模大多少？
- 我不知道你对那么大的团队有多少直接的管理控制权，但随着项目越来越大，管理起来有多难？
- 在参与过这款游戏的大约一千人中，你觉得你能叫出多少人的名字？
- 显然，有人批评游戏没有包含所有遗留宝可梦。这其中有多少是因为团队已经很大、需要的人员资源带...
- 你还记得你第一次产生这种想法是什么时候吗？就是那种“哦，我们总有一天得划清界限”的感觉。
- 你看到那个推特挑战了吗，“五分钟做一个宝可梦？”
- 你觉得一个真正的宝可梦最快能在多长时间内被创造出来？
- 好，那么最后，我有一些来自Polygon其他同事的具体问题。首先，为什么大葱鸭现在获得了进化？
- 加入呐喊队的想法是从哪里来的？
- 那么开发版本限定道馆馆主的想法呢——这是从哪来的？
- 球球海狮的反响影响了泪眼蜥吗？
Next month, Pokémon Sword and Shield will become the first mainline Pokémon role-playing game to debut on a home console. Of course, with Switch, whether it counts as more of a portable console will always be up for debate. But for the first time, the series will sit alongside Nintendo’s premium entries in its key franchises like Super Mario Odyssey and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild — something certain fans have been anticipating for decades.
下个月，《宝可梦 剑·盾》将成为首款在主机上首发的主系列宝可梦角色扮演游戏。当然，就Switch而言，它是否更应算作便携式主机，始终会有争议。但这是该系列首次与任天堂旗下《超级马力欧 奥德赛》《塞尔达传说 旷野之息》等核心系列的高规格作品并列——这是某些粉丝期待了几十年的事。
As you might imagine, developer Game Freak has a lot riding on this one. Two weeks ago, I spoke to producer Junichi Masuda and director Shigeru Ohmori about their approach to the game, the thousand people involved in bringing it together, and the fan complaints about missing Pokémon.
可以想见，开发商Game Freak在这款游戏上押注颇多。两周前，我与制作人增田顺一和总监大森滋聊了聊他们制作这款游戏的方式、参与其中的上千人，以及粉丝对部分宝可梦缺席的不满。
主机游戏
Polygon
A lot of people talk about this being the first real Pokémon console RPG. Do you think of it that way or is that just what others say?
很多人说这是第一款真正的宝可梦主机RPG。你自己也这么看，还是这只是别人的说法？
大森滋
So of course, at Game Freak we acknowledge the Nintendo Switch as a console. We definitely position it that way and this, from our perspective as well, was the first main series Pokémon RPG to be developed on a console. But as you know, the Switch is not really a traditional console so you can take it with you and also, if you choose, play it as a portable device. So you could take it to a friend’s house and, you know, play it together in-person like a traditional Pokémon game. So it’s kind of a special positioning compared to a traditional console.
当然，在Game Freak，我们承认Nintendo Switch是一台主机。我们确实这样定位它，而且从我们的角度来看，这也是第一款在主机上开发的主系列宝可梦RPG。但如你所知，Switch并不是真正传统意义上的主机，你可以随身带着它，也可以选择把它当作便携设备来玩。所以你可以把它带到朋友家，像玩传统宝可梦游戏那样面对面一起玩。所以与传统主机相比，它的定位有些特殊。
大森滋
Obviously, historically you guys have resisted targeting consoles. A lot of people speculated for years wondering when it would happen, and it never did until Switch seems like it almost forced it to happen. Was this inevitable? Say hypothetically Switch never happened. Say Switch was a traditional console that didn’t have a portable component. Do you think you would have gone this direction eventually anyway?
显然，从历史上看，你们一直抗拒以主机为目标平台。很多人多年来一直在猜测这会在什么时候发生，但直到Switch出现，这件事似乎才几乎是被迫发生的。这是不可避免的吗？假设Switch从未出现。假设Switch是一台没有便携部件的传统主机。你觉得你们最终还是会朝这个方向走吗？
大森滋
It’s kind of hard to speculate where we would have gone if that were the direction, but I do think it’s fair to say that the Pokémon main series RPGs that we develop have a very strong connection with Nintendo hardware. So whatever they put out, they usually take a pretty unique approach with things and we try to kind of match that uniqueness with the games. But, yeah. That’s all I can really say.
如果真是那个方向，很难推测我们会走向哪里，但我认为可以公平地说，我们开发的主系列宝可梦RPG与任天堂硬件有着非常强的联系。所以无论他们推出什么，通常都会采取相当独特的做法，而我们会试着让游戏与那种独特性相匹配。不过，是的。我能说的就这些。
增田顺一
But of course, if the Switch had come out as a traditional console and then at the same time they had released a separate portable device, I think it would probably be safe to say we would have developed on the portable device.
但当然，如果Switch是作为传统主机推出的，同时他们又另外推出了一台便携设备，我想大概可以说，我们会在便携设备上开发。
Polygon
In some ways, it feels like Switch is pulling you onto consoles instead of you maybe wanting to go in that direction. Does it feel like that at all?
在某些方面，感觉像是Switch把你们拉上了主机，而不是你们自己可能想往那个方向走。有这种感觉吗？
增田顺一
So at Game Freak, we get opportunities to give feedback to the direction that Nintendo is going with their hardware, so I think it’s less of being pulled in a direction and more kind of coming up with a direction together.
在Game Freak，我们有机会就任天堂硬件的方向提供反馈，所以我觉得与其说是被拉向某个方向，不如说是一起想出一个方向。
Polygon
Do you remember any specific feedback that either of you gave on this hardware?
你们还记得自己针对这款硬件提出过什么具体的反馈吗？
增田顺一
I can’t really go into details. I did give feedback in general terms to Mr. Iwata long ago that it should be a hardware platform that people can enjoy together. So, just in general terms, that was one piece of feedback I gave.
我不太能讲细节。很久以前我确实向岩田先生提过一条笼统的反馈，说它应该是一个人们可以一起享受的硬件平台。所以，笼统地说，那是我给出的一条反馈。
1000人
Polygon
There was an interview recently where you [Ohmori] mentioned that a thousand people had been involved in this game in one capacity or another, and I know that involves not just Game Freak but lots of other companies and departments. I’m curious what the biggest resource pull is. What aspect of these games requires the most people?
最近有一篇采访，你（大森）提到有一千人以某种方式参与了这个游戏，我知道这不只是Game Freak，还包括很多其他公司和部门。我很好奇最大的资源投入在哪里。这些游戏的哪个方面需要最多的人？
大森滋
So, yeah. The number being close to a thousand, that of course includes all the different functions like marketing and PR and everyone that would be associated with the game ahead of release. But I think at Game Freak, really the core team of people that worked on the game was around 200 people. And of course, Creatures is another partner company that develops 3D models of the Pokémon. There are various teams that handle debugging at our partner companies as well. So there’s a lot of people involved and I think in terms of just the sheer number of the most resources required to make something happen for the development, it was definitely more on the graphical side of things. Like I mentioned, Creatures was involved with creating the models, but even at Game Freak, with the increased power of the Switch, we tried to make richer, more expressive visuals. We definitely needed more people this time around. […]
是的。接近一千这个数字，当然包括了营销、公关等所有不同职能，以及所有在发售前会与这款游戏相关的人。但我认为在Game Freak，真正参与游戏开发的核心团队大约有200人。当然，Creatures是另一家合作公司，负责制作宝可梦的3D模型。我们合作公司里也有各种团队负责调试。所以参与的人很多，我认为单就开发所需资源数量而言，绝对更多是在图形方面。就像我提到的，Creatures参与了模型的制作，但即使在Game Freak，随着Switch性能的提升，我们也尝试做出更丰富、更有表现力的画面。这次我们肯定需要更多人。[…]
大森滋
I mean, there’s more than a hundred people who worked on debugging the game, the testing and all of that. And Creatures, they probably have a hundred people working on 3D models and everything. Now that we’re on the Switch, there’s the graphical stuff but also creating the data for the various systems in the game and everything. It just requires a lot of people to be involved.
我是说，有超过一百人参与游戏的调试、测试等等。而Creatures大概有一百人在做3D模型之类的工作。现在到了Switch上，有图形方面的东西，还要为游戏中的各种系统创建数据等等。这需要很多人参与。
增田顺一
Really this time, a lot of the network features and server-side stuff and new communication features put into the game required a lot more people working on the debug side of things than before.
这次真的，游戏中加入的许多网络功能、服务器端的东西以及新的通信功能，都需要比以往更多的人手来做调试方面的工作。
Polygon
How would the number of staff compare to what you had on previous Pokémon games?
与你们之前开发宝可梦游戏时相比，人员数量如何？
大森滋
I just want to make sure I don’t give the wrong impression. It’s not really a thousand-person team working on the actual content of the game. It’s really everyone who was involved in the project, including marketing and PR, advertising, localization, all that stuff.
我只是想确保不给人错误的印象。并不是真的有一千人的团队在制作游戏的实际内容。而是所有参与这个项目的人，包括营销、公关、广告、本地化等等。
Polygon
Sure, and I imagine many of those people were not full-time on this game.
当然，我想其中很多人并不是全职做这个游戏。
大森滋
Yes, it’s really just everyone who collaborated on the project including contractors, outsourced companies, our partners like The Pokémon Company, Pokémon Company International, Creatures, and all the other people that have been involved at any point in the development.
是的，实际上就是所有参与这个项目的人，包括承包商、外包公司，以及我们的合作伙伴，比如宝可梦公司、宝可梦国际公司、Creatures，还有在开发过程中任何阶段参与进来的其他所有人。
Polygon
So overall, how much bigger would you say, roughly speaking, this project was compared to previous games?
那么总体而言，粗略来说，这个项目比之前的游戏规模大多少？
增田顺一
It’s hard to give a really clear answer but I’d say maybe 1.5 times the number of people as a general estimate.
很难给出一个非常明确的答案，但大致估计的话，人数可能是之前的1.5倍。
大森滋
That’s more of just kind of speaking from feeling, though, not any kind of specific number.
不过，这更多只是凭感觉说的，并不是什么具体的数字。
Polygon
I don’t know how much direct managerial control you have over a team that size but how hard is it hard to manage these projects as they get bigger and bigger?
我不知道你对那么大的团队有多少直接的管理控制权，但随着项目越来越大，管理起来有多难？
大森滋
It definitely gets harder. I think the bigger the project gets and the more complex things get, it can get more difficult to make sure that everyone’s on the same page and that you’re conveying the same message to everyone and they’re understanding it. For example, I definitely have to get more specialists — like programmers who are experts in a very specific field of technology and making sure that I understand what they’re doing but also making sure that they understand what the goal for the game that they’re developing is.
确实越来越难。我认为项目越大、事情越复杂，就越难确保每个人都在同一页上，确保你向所有人传达相同的信息，并且他们能理解。例如，我肯定需要更多专家——比如在某个非常具体的技术领域是专家的程序员，既要确保我理解他们在做什么，也要确保他们理解他们正在开发的游戏的目标是什么。
Polygon
Out of the thousand or so people who have touched this game, how many do you think you could name?
在参与过这款游戏的大约一千人中，你觉得你能叫出多少人的名字？
大森滋
I’m pretty bad at remembering names.
我记名字很不在行。
遗留宝可梦
Polygon
Obviously, there’s been some criticism about not including all of the legacy Pokémon in the game. How much of that is related to the challenges of this already being a huge team and the staffing resources it would take, and how much was it a creative decision that you knew you’d have to get to eventually?
显然，有人批评游戏没有包含所有遗留宝可梦。这其中有多少是因为团队已经很大、需要的人员资源带来的挑战，又有多少是你们知道最终必须做出的创作决定？
增田顺一
I think it’s fair to say that both are involved. I mean, in any design situation, resources and time are always a constraint on what you can do in a project. But at the same time from a creative perspective, it’s part of a discussion we’ve had at Game Freak with Nintendo and The Pokémon Company, and we came to the decision that, at some point, we need to be able to prioritize new gameplay ideas. We need to be able to find a way to balance the right number of Pokémon and also still introduce new ways for players to enjoy the game, new gameplay ideas to keep the series fresh and enjoyable far into the future.
我认为可以说两者都有关系。我的意思是，在任何设计情境下，资源和时间始终是项目能做什么的制约因素。但与此同时，从创作的角度来说，这也是我们Game Freak与任天堂和宝可梦公司讨论过的一部分，我们得出的结论是，在某个时候，我们需要能够优先考虑新的玩法创意。我们需要找到一种方式，在合适的宝可梦数量之间取得平衡，同时仍然为玩家引入新的享受游戏的方式、新的玩法创意，让这个系列在遥远的未来依然保持新鲜和有趣。
Polygon
Do you remember how long ago you that first occurred to you? That sense of, oh, we’re going to have to draw the line sometime.
你还记得你第一次产生这种想法是什么时候吗？就是那种“哦，我们总有一天得划清界限”的感觉。
增田顺一
I mean, from my perspective, it’s always been in the back of my mind that at some point we were going to have to not include all the Pokémon. One of the things we’ve tried to do this time around, and we don’t have a lot of details to share, but we’re introducing a cloud service called Pokémon Home and we really want to use that to kind of expand the Pokémon world, provide a place for players to be able to gather all of their Pokémon in one spot, do fun things, and also use it as a launching pad for different adventures and different games.
我的意思是，从我的角度来看，我一直隐隐约约地意识到，总有一天我们不得不不再包含所有宝可梦。这次我们尝试做的一件事——我们没有太多细节可以分享——是我们推出了一个叫Pokémon Home的云服务，我们真的很想用它来扩展宝可梦世界，为玩家提供一个能把所有宝可梦聚集在一处、做有趣事情的地方，同时也把它作为不同冒险和不同游戏的发射台。
Polygon
Did you see the, the Twitter challenge, “make a Pokémon in five minutes?”
你看到那个推特挑战了吗，“五分钟做一个宝可梦？”
增田顺一
Yeah, I definitely saw it. I mean, it was interesting to see everyone doing that challenge. But Pokémon are definitely not things that you can just make in five minutes. Obviously, you know, it’s not just the outward facing appearance. You’ve got to make sure it moves and everything, and then there’s all the different systems and data you have to create to make it work in the game. But, yeah. It was interesting to see.
是的，我肯定看到了。我的意思是，看到大家都在做那个挑战挺有意思的。但宝可梦绝对不是那种你五分钟就能做出来的东西。显然，你知道，不只是外在的样子。你得确保它会动等等，然后还有各种不同的系统和数据，你必须创建这些才能让它在游戏里运作起来。不过，是的。看到这个挺有意思的。
Polygon
What would be the quickest amount of time you think an actual Pokémon could be created in?
你觉得一个真正的宝可梦最快能在多长时间内被创造出来？
大森滋
It definitely takes a decent amount of time. I’d say the fastest for coming up with an idea and actually implementing it completely in the game would be at least three months per character. You know, having them all move in parallel. It’s not just creating that outward appearance of the Pokémon. You’ve got to make sure that then you build the model and make sure it’s within the limits for the polygons, rig it with all the bones and everything, texture it and make it look how we set it up, and then send it to the animators, have them create all the different animations, review those to make sure they still match the idea, and then eventually put it in the game and make sure that everything works in there. So it’s definitely a pretty involved process.
这肯定需要相当长的时间。我想说，从想出一个点子到真正在游戏里完全实现，最快也要每个角色至少三个月。你知道，让它们全部并行推进。这不仅仅是创造出宝可梦的外在样子。你还得确保接着建立模型，确保它在多边形数量限制之内，给它绑定骨骼等等，贴图并让它看起来符合我们的设定，然后交给动画师，让他们制作各种不同的动画，审核这些动画以确保它们仍然符合最初的想法，最后把它放进游戏里并确保一切都能正常运作。所以这绝对是一个相当复杂的过程。
附加内容
Polygon
OK, so to finish I have some specific questions from others on the Polygon staff. First, why is Farfetch’d getting an evolution now?
好，那么最后，我有一些来自Polygon其他同事的具体问题。首先，为什么大葱鸭现在获得了进化？
大森滋
So the Galar region, the inspiration for it is actually the UK. We spent a lot of time researching and kind of referring to different things in the UK and I spent time there. One of the things I remember noticing was that the leeks that they sell in the UK are much bigger and thicker than the ones I see in Japan. So seeing that, I got the idea that the Farfetch’d that lives in the Galar region would maybe evolve in a different way than you see elsewhere.
伽勒尔地区的灵感实际上来自英国。我们花了大量时间研究和参考英国的各种事物，我也在那里待过。我记得我注意到的一件事是，英国卖的大葱比我在日本看到的要大得多、粗得多。所以看到这个，我有了一个想法：生活在伽勒尔地区的大葱鸭也许会以不同于其他地方所见的方式进化。
Polygon
Where did the idea for including Team Yell come from?
加入呐喊队的想法是从哪里来的？
大森滋
So one of the themes in Pokémon Sword and Shield with the Galar region is that Pokémon battles there are really like a sport that’s widely enjoyed as entertainment in the region. Similar to how you’ll see soccer teams that have huge fan followings, you’ll see that there’s a lot of fans and supporters for the different gyms that are in that region. The idea was that there was this group that, kind of similar to how you see followings of idols in Japan, are really backing this very specific trainer, Marnie, and they just want to really support her and make sure she is the champion.
《宝可梦 剑·盾》中伽勒尔地区的一个主题是，那里的宝可梦对战就像一种被广泛当作娱乐来享受的体育运动。就像你会看到拥有庞大粉丝群的足球队一样，在那个地区，不同的道馆也有很多粉丝和支持者。我们的想法是，有这么一个团体，有点像在日本看到的偶像粉丝团那样，全力支持着一位非常特定的训练家玛俐，他们只是想真正支持她，确保她成为冠军。
Polygon
What about the idea to develop version-specific gym leaders — where did that come from?
那么开发版本限定道馆馆主的想法呢——这是从哪来的？
大森滋
This also comes back to the whole idea of Pokémon battles in the Galar region being this kind of sport. They’re played in gym stadiums. It’s kind of a background setting. It’s not actually in the game but we had the idea that there would be 18 gyms in the region, total. And only eight of those in either game are in the kind of major league that you actually challenge as part of your gym challenge. So we had this kind of idea that, oh, maybe some of the different types would actually be in these two different games.
这也要回到伽勒尔地区宝可梦对战是这种体育运动的整体设定。它们在道馆竞技场里进行。这算是一种背景设定。它实际上并没有出现在游戏里，但我们有过一个想法，那就是这个地区总共有18个道馆。而两款游戏各自只有其中8个属于那种大联盟，是你作为道馆挑战的一部分实际去挑战的。所以我们有了这样的想法：哦，也许某些不同的属性实际上会分别出现在这两款不同的游戏里。
Polygon
Did the reaction to Popplio influence Sobble?
球球海狮的反响影响了泪眼蜥吗？
大森滋
I wouldn’t say it was influenced by Popplio. The direction we really took with the starters this time was treating them as kind of a group or a set, and we wanted to give them all unique personalities as if they were a group. Sobble is more this kind of shy, timid, maybe a little bit sad character. You’ve got Scorbunny, who’s really energetic but also gets into mischief sometimes. And then there’s Grookey here who is kind of the mood maker and almost the leader of the group, and keeps the group together. So we wanted to kind of give them their own unique personalities.
我不会说它受到了球球海狮的影响。这次我们对初始宝可梦采取的方向，确实是把它们当作一个团体或一套来对待，我们想赋予它们各自独特的个性，就像它们是一个团体一样。泪眼蜥更像是那种害羞、胆怯、也许有点悲伤的角色。还有炎兔儿，它非常有活力，但有时也会捣蛋。然后是敲音猴，它算是气氛制造者，几乎是这个团体的领导者，把大家凝聚在一起。所以我们想赋予它们各自独特的个性。
大森滋
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