2019 VG247
增田顺一与大森滋谈剑盾
大森滋 × 增田顺一
《宝可梦 剑·盾》制作人增田顺一与总监大森滋谈伽勒尔地区、全国图鉴争议与系列未来。
Contents 本篇 9 章
- VG247：这是你们在这款新硬件上第一款非重制性质的作品……那么这次你们是如何确定方向的？...
- VG247：那么，为什么这款游戏的设定选在英国？对我们这些来自这里的人来说，能看到自己家乡...
- VG247：这显然是一个高度风格化的英国版本，但达到那个效果的过程是怎样的？研究过程是什么...
- VG247：过去几年，你们差不多每年都会推出一款这样的大作——宝可梦几乎已经成了一个每年一...
- VG247：你们如何在旧与新之间找到平衡？这有点像那种不可能解决的难题：既要取悦所有这些老...
- VG247：那么……现在最佳的入门途径是什么？我有个朋友迷上了《Pokemon Go》。你...
- VG247：啊，当然，让他们两个都买。全都买！
- VG247：那么，我们得谈谈那个显而易见的问题。在E3上你们公布了本作中宝可梦图鉴的处理方...
- VG247：我必须问一下地区形态的问题。作为英国人，这很令人兴奋，因为它们参考了我们的野生...
In many ways, Pokemon Sword & Shield have been decades in the making. I know that I’ve been daydreaming about what a big, main series console Pokemon title would look like since the late nineties - and thanks to Nintendo merging its handheld and console efforts in the Switch, it’s now finally happening.
从很多方面来说，《宝可梦 剑·盾》是历经数十年才得以诞生的作品。我知道自己从九十年代末起就一直在幻想，一款大型的主系列家用机宝可梦游戏会是什么样子——而多亏任天堂在Switch上把手持与家用机业务合而为一，这件事如今终于成真了。
It hasn’t all been smooth sailing. There was the whole national Pokedex controversy, and then when I played the E3 build of the game I was left rather disappointed - but a more recent hands-on with the game for an extended period has finally convinced me of exactly what is special about this latest Pokemon adventure. I get it now - I understand.
过程并非一帆风顺。先是有整个全国图鉴的争议，后来我玩到E3展出版本时又颇为失望——但最近一次较长时间的试玩，终于让我确信这款最新的宝可梦冒险究竟特别在哪里。我现在懂了——我明白了。
After that hands-on session at Pokemon’s UK offices I got a chance to sit down with Pokemon Sword & Shield producer Junichi Masuda, while director Shigeru Ohmori joined us from Japan via video link. We discussed the Galar region setting of the game, the influence of Pokemon Let’s Go on development, and that national dex controversy. Here’s our chat:
在宝可梦英国办公室的那次试玩之后，我得到了与《宝可梦 剑·盾》制作人增田顺一坐下来交谈的机会，而总监大森滋则从日本通过视频连线加入我们。我们讨论了游戏的伽勒尔地区设定、《宝可梦 Let’s Go》对开发的影响，以及那场全国图鉴争议。以下是我们的对话：
Pokemon Sword & Shield: 10 Minutes of Brand New Gameplay Watch on YouTube
《宝可梦 剑·盾》：10分钟全新实机游玩 在YouTube上观看
VG247
VG247: This is your first non-remake sort of game on this new hardware… so how did you define the approach this time around? Was there a set approach from day one, or did you sort of gradually trend towards a direction as development moved forward?
VG247：这是你们在这款新硬件上第一款非重制性质的作品……那么这次你们是如何确定方向的？是从第一天就有既定方针，还是随着开发推进逐渐趋向某个方向？
大森滋
With designing this one, as you say it’s the first kind of ‘new’ game on the Switch home console. The theme for making the game this time around was to make the ‘strongest’ Pokemon - in the sense that we’ve got the strongest graphics compared to what we’ve had in the past. We’ve got that Switch hardware, so we’ve really tried to make it the biggest world we can so far. Then there’s even individual features - like the Dynamax feature gives you huge, really strong looking Pokemon. So everything is done with the kind of intent of creating a strong Pokemon game in those various meanings.
正如你所说，这是Switch家用主机上第一款“全新”游戏。这次制作游戏的主题是打造“最强”的宝可梦——意思是我们拥有相比过去最强的画面。我们有了Switch硬件，所以真的尽力去做出迄今为止最大的世界。甚至还有单项特色——比如极巨化功能会给你巨大、看起来非常强的宝可梦。所以一切都是带着在各种意义上打造一款强大宝可梦游戏的意图来做的。
大森滋
Doing so has really allowed us to make use of the Switch hardware and everything that offers - and that’s how we approached the game development this time around.
这样做确实让我们得以充分利用Switch硬件及其提供的一切——这就是我们这次进行游戏开发的方式。
VG247
VG247: So, why the UK for this game’s setting? Obviously for us from here it’s very cool, to see the Pokemon version of our home, but how did you guys settle on it?
VG247：那么，为什么这款游戏的设定选在英国？对我们这些来自这里的人来说，能看到自己家乡的宝可梦版本当然很酷，但你们是怎么定下来的？
大森滋
On a personal level, I really like UK music - UK rock music - and also some TV shows from the UK as well. So on a personal level that’s kind of inspired me in the choice of the region. But on a more thematic level, we just talked about the theme of the strongest Pokemon… in terms of sort of historical, industry development, the industrial revolution, and also in terms of the modern day - things like sport play a role in the game - the UK is historically quite strong in these aspects as well. So when thinking of what the strongest Pokemon is, the UK came to mind as a really suitable area to base it in.
就个人而言，我很喜欢英国音乐——英国摇滚乐——也喜欢一些英国的电视节目。所以从个人层面来说，这在一定程度上影响了我对地区的选择。但更从主题层面来说，我们刚谈到了最强宝可梦的主题……从历史、产业发展、工业革命的角度，以及从现代的角度——比如体育运动在游戏中扮演角色——英国在这些方面历史上也相当强。所以在思考什么是最强宝可梦时，英国就浮现在脑海中，作为一个非常适合作为其原型的地区。
VG247
VG247: This is obviously a really stylized version of the UK, but what does the process look like to get to that? What is the research process like? Do you come out and do reference photography and stuff like that?
VG247：这显然是一个高度风格化的英国版本，但达到那个效果的过程是怎样的？研究过程是什么样的？你们会出来拍参考照片之类的吗？
大森滋
As you say, it’s not a full one-to-one representation of the UK, but it really is based on it and adapted to the Pokemon world. So of course as developers, from the start we don’t necessarily know a huge amount about the UK, so one thing we did was go directly to the UK and look at different places. For example, on visiting the Lake District we were inspired by how pretty everywhere is, obviously the lakes…! [laughs] But also things like… there’s a Peter Rabbit museum up there, and that inspires, like - all the different cute things and beautiful environments that you can see. That’s something that we’re very much inspired by, those on-site locations. Based on that we then look at how we can adapt it and fit it into the Pokemon world.
正如你所说，它并不是对英国的一对一完整再现，但它确实是以英国为原型，并改编到宝可梦世界中的。所以作为开发者，我们一开始对英国并不一定了解很多，我们做的一件事就是直接去英国，看看不同的地方。比如，在参观湖区时，我们被那里处处美丽的景色所启发，当然还有那些湖泊……！[笑] 但还有像……那里有一个彼得兔博物馆，这也给了我们灵感，比如——你能看到的各种可爱的东西和美丽的环境。那些实地地点给了我们很大的启发。在此基础上，我们再考虑如何改编它，让它融入宝可梦世界。
VG247
VG247: The last few years you’ve sort of been doing one of these big games every year - Pokemon has practically been a yearly series. Is that something you plan to continue with?
VG247：过去几年，你们差不多每年都会推出一款这样的大作——宝可梦几乎已经成了一个每年一作的系列。你们打算继续这样做吗？
增田顺一
The first thing that’s kind of important in deciding the future direction is releasing Sword & Shield, it’s seeing the response to that. That’s an important part of where we go in the future. So it’s not necessarily that we’re looking always to release every single year, but each time we go into making a new game and start a new project we look at what exactly we want to create - and then from where we decide the most appropriate timing to release it depending on various factors.
决定未来方向时，首先重要的一点是推出《剑／盾》，并看看它的反响。这是我们未来走向的重要部分。所以并不一定是我们总想着每年都推出一款，而是每次我们开始制作一款新游戏、启动一个新项目时，都会考虑我们究竟想创造什么——然后根据各种因素，决定最合适的发售时机。
增田顺一
One thing that we always want to keep in mind going forwards is that we want as many people to come in contact with and play Pokemon as possible. We’ve obviously got a lot of long-time fans who have loved the series for a long time, and we definitely want to keep making games that they love. At the same time we always want to draw in new players and make games that are accessible to them. So that’s a really important thing we consider when starting a new project.
我们今后始终想记住的一点是，我们希望尽可能多的人接触并游玩宝可梦。我们显然有很多长期喜爱这个系列的忠实粉丝，我们绝对想继续制作他们喜欢的游戏。同时，我们也一直想吸引新玩家，制作他们也能上手的游戏。所以这是我们在启动新项目时会考虑的一件非常重要的事。
VG247
VG247: How do you manage to find the balance between the old and the new? It’s sort of that impossible quandary of pleasing all these old fans but also… Pokemon has always been a franchise that’s been focused on the kids, right? But then there’s a lot of fans in their twenties and thirties still playing. How do you balance that?
VG247：你们如何在旧与新之间找到平衡？这有点像那种不可能解决的难题：既要取悦所有这些老粉丝，又要……宝可梦一直是一个以孩子为核心的系列，对吧？但也有很多二三十岁的粉丝仍在玩。你们如何平衡这一点？
大森滋
Balancing that sort of aspect is one really, really difficult element of development. The point that we always begin from is people who are coming into the game for the first time. So, for example, there might be a lot of players who played a lot of Pokemon Go but who have never played a main series game, and they’re coming into this for the first time. We want to make sure that they can enjoy the game as much as anyone who plays it - be that for twenty years or two days.
平衡这方面是开发中一个非常、非常困难的环节。我们始终从第一次接触这个游戏的人出发。比如，可能有很多玩家玩过很多《Pokemon Go》，但从未玩过正传游戏，他们是第一次接触这个系列。我们希望确保他们能像任何玩了二十年或两天的人一样享受游戏。
大森滋
This is why we always explain things like what the Pokemon world is all about, how it all works, how to throw a Pokeball and catch a Pokemon… all that basic stuff. We do start with the very basics and then gradually add in the other, more complex features. We also really try to make sure that everyone can approach the game on the same level. That is really our thought process.
这就是为什么我们总是解释宝可梦世界是什么、它如何运作、如何扔精灵球并捕捉宝可梦……所有这些基础内容。我们确实从最基础的东西开始，然后逐渐加入其他更复杂的要素。我们也真的努力确保每个人都能在同一水平上接触游戏。这就是我们的思路。
VG247
VG247: So… what is the optimum route in now? I’ve got a friend who has got into Pokemon Go. What would the advice be that you’d give them? Would you say to them perhaps to play Pokemon Let’s Go first, since it’s a bit simpler? Or would you advise them to now just jump straight into Sword and Shield?
VG247：那么……现在最佳的入门途径是什么？我有个朋友迷上了《Pokemon Go》。你会给他什么建议？你会说也许先玩《Pokemon Let’s Go》，因为它稍微简单一些？还是建议他们现在直接玩《剑／盾》？
增田顺一
Well, really what I’d say is… at the moment if someone is looking into the main series and they’ve only played Pokemon Go before, then Let’s Go is out there… so until this is released in November, we’d really recommend they go and play that and have a good time. Then when this is released on November 15, they can pick up Sword or Shield… or Sword and Shield… and enjoy that as well. [laughs]
嗯，我真正想说的是……目前如果有人想了解正传系列，而之前只玩过《Pokemon Go》，那么《Let’s Go》已经出了……所以在11月这款游戏发售之前，我们真的建议他们去玩那个，好好享受。然后当这款游戏在11月15日发售时，他们可以买《剑》或《盾》……或者《剑／盾》……也享受一下。[笑]
VG247
VG247: Ah, buy them both, of course. Buy them all!
VG247：啊，当然，让他们两个都买。全都买！
增田顺一
Well, the first thing is, please buy a Switch. [laughs]
嗯，首先，请买一台Switch。（笑）
增田顺一
VG247: Obviously this would’ve been in development before Let’s Go released, but I’m curious about how Let’s Go and the response to it might have influenced development. I was one of those people who when you guys announced Let’s Go and revealed there were no random encounters, I was mad - and then when the game came out I was completely convinced, and even wrote an article supporting removing random encounters. In this, you’ve sort of gone half-and-half…
VG247：显然本作在《Let’s Go》发售前就已经在开发了，但我很好奇《Let’s Go》以及玩家对它的反应可能如何影响了开发。我就是那种人——当你们公布《Let’s Go》并透露没有随机遭遇时，我很生气——然后游戏发售后我完全被说服了，甚至写了一篇文章支持取消随机遭遇。而在本作中，你们算是走了一半一半……
大森滋
To start with, producing Let’s Go Pikachu & Eevee was a really good learning experience in terms of developing for the Switch for the first time, helping us on the way to developing this game. So on a very practical level, one thing that was difficult was we weren’t sure how many wild Pokemon you could physically make appear on the overworld at the same time without causing trouble. Producing Let’s Go was a way to discover that.
首先，制作《Let’s Go 皮卡丘／伊布》在首次为Switch开发游戏方面是一次非常好的学习经历，帮助我们走上了开发本作的道路。所以从非常实际的层面来说，一个困难之处是我们不确定在不引发问题的情况下，同时能在场景中让多少只野生宝可梦实际出现。制作《Let’s Go》就是发现这一点的方式。
大森滋
Seeing the feedback from fans, seeing that it was actually really well received that they could actually see the encounters on the map and decide if they wanted to take part or not… seeing that made us switch our direction towards it a little bit more, to increase the number of visible encounters we have in Sword & Shield a little bit more. So it really did have quite an influence on the development of this game.
看到粉丝的反馈，看到他们其实非常欢迎能在地图上看到遭遇对象并决定是否参与……看到这些让我们稍微更多地转向这个方向，在《剑／盾》中稍微增加可见遭遇的数量。所以它确实对本作的开发产生了相当大的影响。
VG247
VG247: So, we have to talk about the elephant in the room. At E3 you guys announced what you were doing with the Pokedex in this game, not having a complete national dex in the game. There was quite a response. Obviously you’re doing what you’re doing with this game, but has the response given you any pause for thought? Do you still think this is absolutely the only way to go in the future?
VG247：那么，我们得谈谈那个显而易见的问题。在E3上你们公布了本作中宝可梦图鉴的处理方式，游戏里没有完整的全国图鉴。反响相当大。显然你们在本作中是在做你们在做的事，但玩家的反应有没有让你们停下来思考？你们仍然认为这在未来绝对是唯一的方向吗？
增田顺一
It’s not necessarily that it’s made us rethink things per se, but what we are always looking at for the future is what we can do to make the most interesting game possible and make a more enjoyable, richer experience for the fans.
倒不是说这本身让我们重新思考了什么，但我们一直在为未来考虑的是，我们能做些什么来做出最有趣的游戏，为粉丝带来更愉快、更丰富的体验。
增田顺一
For example, when we add new moves and abilities we create a deeper experience for everyone to enjoy. This time around we can also give people a greater attachment to the Pokemon that are in the game, which is something we think is very important. So we definitely - we don’t have regrets about what we’ve done.
比如说，当我们加入新招式和特性时，我们为每个人创造了更深入的体验。这一次我们也能让人们对游戏中的宝可梦产生更深的感情，我们认为这非常重要。所以我们绝对——我们对自己所做的事没有遗憾。
增田顺一
In terms of having Pokemon that you had in previous games, we do have Pokemon Home that’s coming out - and that’s another place where everyone can gather all their Pokemon from previous games and enjoy a different way of playing with them there.
至于把前作中的宝可梦带过来，我们确实有即将推出的Pokemon Home——那也是大家可以把前作中所有宝可梦聚集起来、在那里享受不同游玩方式的地方。
增田顺一
VG247: What’s your approach to the game in a presentation sense? In the demo I played you’ve got the most sort of cinematic story scene that I’ve seen in a Pokemon game - there’s perhaps some stuff in Sun and Moon that comes close - so was it exciting to do that stuff? I’m also curious about the decision to not have voice work - as it’s striking to have these cutscenes with automatically progressing text boxes and lip flapping, but no voice.
VG247：从表现层面来说，你们对本作的思路是什么？在我玩到的试玩中，有我在宝可梦游戏中见过的最具电影感的故事场景——也许《太阳／月亮》里有些内容接近——所以做这些东西让你们兴奋吗？我也很好奇不做配音的决定——因为这些过场动画中文本框自动推进、嘴巴在动，却没有声音，这很引人注目。
大森滋
We really did want to make these cutscenes quite a focus from the start and make them more elaborate than usual. One thing that inspired us is the fact that we wanted to push the new hardware as far as we possibly could. These kind of scenes really allow us to show that off.
我们从一开始就确实想让这些过场动画成为重点，让它们比平常更精致。启发我们的一点是，我们想尽可能把新硬件推到极限。这类场景正好让我们能够展示这一点。
大森滋
We can display scenes in much more detail than we’ve ever been able to, down to parts of the body moving that wouldn’t before - like the lips, like you mentioned. We do think that we need to continue to adapt to the technology that we’re using, figuring out what to put in and not to put in accordingly. On a practical level, we have a really big RPG with a lot of text that we’re also developing in nine languages simultaneously. So the realities of implementing voicework on something like that, we do have to really decide if that’s something we want to do, or even if it’s practical. That nine language simultaneous release is something that we really heavily prioritized. Balancing that kind of thing is quite important to us.
我们能够以远超以往的方式展示细节丰富的场景，甚至包括以前不会动的身体部位——比如你提到的嘴唇。我们确实认为需要不断适应所使用的技术，据此决定加入什么、不加入什么。从实际层面来说，我们正在开发一款规模很大的RPG，文本量巨大，并且同时以九种语言进行开发。所以在这种规模的作品上实现语音，我们必须认真决定这是否是我们想做的事，甚至是否现实。九种语言同步发售是我们非常重视的一点。平衡这类事情对我们来说相当重要。
大森滋
Another small thing to add is that if you go in and add voice, you instantly give the players an impression of that character. If you don’t do that, the players can read the text and imagine what that character might speak like and give them their own personality from their side. That’s something that’s quite nice. If we were to add voice, that might be lost a little. That’s another consideration.
还有一点小补充：如果你加入语音，就会立刻给玩家留下对那个角色的印象。如果不加，玩家可以阅读文本，自行想象那个角色会怎么说话，从自己的角度赋予角色个性。这是很不错的一点。如果加入语音，这种体验可能会有所损失。这也是一个考虑因素。
增田顺一
If you get a really good bit of voice acting that’s well recorded, that’s really nice… but if you get some voice acting that’s not great, that feels like it doesn’t match the character, fans aren’t going to be happy about that either! [laughs] Really, the most important thing for us is to have this worldwide release at the same time, have everyone be able to experience it simultaneously. Everyone can go out and find these new Pokemon and have a great experience at the same time.
如果你得到一段录制精良的出色配音，那确实很好……但如果配音质量不佳，感觉和角色不搭，粉丝们也不会满意！[笑]对我们来说，最重要的是全球同步发售，让所有人都能同时体验。大家可以同时出去寻找这些新宝可梦，同时获得美好的体验。
VG247
VG247: I have to ask about the regional forms. Being from the UK it’s exciting, as they’re referencing our wildlife and our culture, and I could totally see that in some of the new ones I saw in the demo. But in design, how does it work? Do you just turn it loose on the artists? Are you thinking about specific Pokemon type combinations you’d like to see? Or are you thinking about the setting?
VG247：我必须问一下地区形态的问题。作为英国人，这很令人兴奋，因为它们参考了我们的野生动物和文化，我在试玩中看到的某些新形态完全体现了这一点。但在设计上，这是怎么运作的？你们是直接放手让美术去发挥？还是会考虑希望看到特定的宝可梦属性组合？又或者是从设定出发？
大森滋
What we do definitely think of is the unique characteristics of the region. So this time we’re thinking about what might fit in with the UK as a regional space. But it’s not just about creating a new individual regional form but also what would this Pokemon look like if it had a regional form and that regional form evolved?
我们确实会考虑该地区独有的特征。所以这次我们在思考什么适合英国作为一个地区空间。但这不仅仅是创造一个新的地区形态个体，还要考虑如果这只宝可梦拥有地区形态，以及该地区形态进化后会是什么样子。
大森滋
Another idea is, you know, you’ve got Sirfetch’d, who has a very thick leek compared to the original leek that Farfetch’d carries… and that’s inspired by the fact that leeks here are quite a lot thicker. So it’s what fits with the region, but also what if a regional form evolved is a question we’ve been thinking about.
另一个想法是，你知道，有葱游兵，它的大葱比原版大葱鸭携带的葱要粗得多……这是受到这里的大葱确实粗很多的启发。所以既要符合地区特色，也要考虑地区形态进化后会怎样，这是我们一直在思考的问题。
大森滋
VG247: We’ve talked a little about the cutscenes and the presentation of the game, but one thing that hasn’t changed as much is battles - they’re still very much the same format, where visually they’re quite static, with ‘canned’ animations for moves and stuff. Is there a temptation to try to make battles look more intricate, or do you think that’s something that just isn’t very possible with the number of moves and Pokemon in play?
VG247：我们稍微谈到了过场动画和游戏的呈现方式，但有一件事变化没那么大，那就是战斗——它们仍然保持非常相同的格式，视觉上相当静态，招式等用的是固定动画。你们有没有想过尝试让战斗看起来更精细复杂，还是认为考虑到招式和宝可梦的数量，这不太可能实现？
大森滋
We do have some different battle features in terms of the presentation - one example is the dynamax battles where everything is a lot bigger, with a lot more pronounced animations and things like that… they’re basically just a lot more over-the-top battles compared to what we’ve had before.
在呈现方面，我们确实有一些不同的战斗特色——一个例子是极巨化战斗，一切都要大得多，动画也更加夸张明显……相比以前，基本上就是更加夸张华丽的战斗。
大森滋
Another aspect is the battle camera you have in the gym battles… now you’ve got these stadiums, you’ve got these fans that are cheering you on and shouting out at different points in the battle. So there are certain aspects where we challenged ourselves to make things a little bit different this time around. What we’d really like to do is look at how fans react to those kind of changes and think about how we might like to change things in the future.
另一个方面是道馆战中的战斗镜头……现在有了这些竞技场，有了这些在战斗不同时刻为你加油呐喊的粉丝。所以这次在某些方面我们挑战自己，让事情有所不同。我们真正想做的是观察粉丝对这些变化的反应，并思考未来我们可能想如何改变。